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Author
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Topic: Georges Wasteland
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ebvan
Member
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posted 06-27-2008 08:23 AM
  
No new postings on the AP site in the last 24 hoursgee he doesn't have much to do without us does he? ------------------
Ex scientia veritas IP: Logged |
rnelson
Member
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posted 06-27-2008 05:23 PM
It's tempting to have some fun with this one.Does anyone know this examiner? quote:
Polygraph and CVSA Forums / Polygraph Procedure / Polygraph and the professor
on: Yesterday at 1:00am
Started by thebigmainer | Post by thebigmainerOk people I need some help. I'm a college student and work in the law enforcement field. I'm taking a college class where the professor is a retired FBI examiner and still does private exams and pre employment exams for law enforcement agencies. H e gave us a challenge in a deviant behavior class he's teaching. Beat the polygraph while he is the examiner. Basically he will administer the test to groups of students. The first group is made up of folks who believe in the poly and will just answer his questions with no lies or countermeasures, the second group will lie but use no countermeasures and my group will lie and use countermeasures. Now he doesn't know what group is doing what, the only people who know are the students and his teaching asst. Now my group is made up of regular students and students who work in law enforcement and corrections. We have our doubts about the test. These are the questions we were given that he said are commonly asked on law enforcement pre-employment tests.
Should be noted that he said he will do the silent number test where we pick a number and he will show that the machine will tell us what we picked and the calibration questions of: Is your name xxxxxxx? He wants us to answer truthfully
Is today xxxxxx?
Is the room blue?
Is this your first polygraph? The regular questions are:
1. How many jobs have you had?
2. Have you ever been fired from a job?
3. Have you ever been asked to resign from a job?
4. Have you ever quit a job to avoid being fired for any reason?
5. Have you ever declared bankruptcy?
6. Have you ever had unsatisfactory credit?
7. Do you have any accounts past 30 days due?
8. How many citations have you received in the past year? _______ Two years?______
9. Have you ever operated any motor vehicle while under the influence of drugs or alcohol, drove recklessly, or driven while under suspension?
10. Have you ever smoked marijuana?
11. When was the first time you smoked marijuana?
12. How many times have you smoked marijuana in the last twelve months?
13. How many times have you smoked marijuana in your entire life?
14. Have you ever injected, or had injected, any illegal drugs into
your body?
15. Have you ever misused or illegally used prescription drugs?
16. Have you ever purchased marijuana or any other type of illegal or
prescription drug not prescribed to you?
17. Have you ever sold marijuana or any other type of illegal or
prescription drug?
18. Have you ever bought an illegal drug or a prescription drug for
someone else?
19. Have you ever grown, harvested, packaged, stored or transported
any type of illegal drugs?
20. When was the last time you used or possessed any illegal drug?
21. Have you ever illegally started a fire?
22. Have you ever intentionally set fire to anything?
23. Have you ever hunted or fished without a license?
24. Have you ever night hunted illegally?
25. Have you ever committed any fish and game violation(s)
26. Have you ever sexually fondled a child since you’ve been grown?
27. Have you ever committed an indecent exposure or held the urge to do so?
28. Have you ever accepted or given any money for the act of prostitution?
29. Have you ever given someone a drug before engaging in sex
with them?
30. Have you ever forced someone to have sex with you, (rape)?
31. Have you ever possessed or produced child pornography?
32. Have you ever accessed child pornography on the Internet?
33. Are you presently involved in any litigation: criminal or civil?
34. Have you ever been convicted of a misdemeanor or a felony?
35. Have you ever stolen any money from a place where you work(ed)?
36. Have you ever stolen any property or merchandise form a place where you work(ed)?
37. Have you ever been with someone when they stole something from a store?
38. Have you, in the past five years, stolen anything from a store?
39. What is the most serious crime in which you were involved?____________________
40. Have you been completely truthful on your application for employment and during the entire hiring process for the agency, you are currently seeking employment with?
41. Have you accurately and truthfully answered these questions? Now which are control and which are revelant?
Which ones are they looking for lies?
He said these will be the questions that he will make a list of 10-15 to ask which he said is common in most states like Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont (Where he tests). Any help would be great, we are planning on using countermeasures.
If we tried to explain why we reacted to a question would it be wise to say that the questions bothers us because of bad experiences in our youth? And can the examiner use that and say that could be why he reacted to it? One of the police officers in my group suggested that.
r ------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)
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rnelson
Member
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posted 06-27-2008 05:32 PM
I'm thinking it would be fun to tell this guy that people who would experience some psychological or posttraumatic abreaction during a polygraph test will probably not make good LEOs, and will probably require years of psychotherapy before they can function normally or sustain any kind of relationship or responsibility. To bad.I hate it when people play the childhood trauma card. Its a disservice any child was actually abused during childhood. This guy claims to be working in law enforcement. Childhood trauma is potentially serious long -term damage to the course of someone's life, including self-concept, relationships, employment, lifestyle stability, addiction, suicide risk, mental health difficulties and overall satisfaction/dissatisfaction. It's not trivial, and not something play with or offer up as some kind of BS excuse.
r
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)
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rnelson
Member
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posted 06-27-2008 05:53 PM
If anyone knows this examiner, it might be worth trying to make contact.Given the number of distinct questions and the need to classify each subject accurately, the likelihood of an error occurring somewhere during this experiment seems rather high. Lets assume that a test of this type can be 97 to 98 percent accurate (a stretch), and assume the teaching assistant selects only one person from each of the three groups, to answer only four of the 40 questions. Lets also assume they will follow the instructions perfectly: people in the truthful group will not lie about anything, while people in the deceptive group will lie about everything, and people in the Lie/CM group will also lie about everything while using CMs to each question to which they lie. That will be .975^4 = .904 as the combined accuracy for four distinct questions (using the multiplication rule for independent probability events) then, .904^3 = .738 as the estimated probability that the examiner will get every question for every subject correct This means the likelihood of an error somewhere is optimistically still greater than 1 in 4. Those are not great odds. Students may not say anything to embarrass the professor and jeopardize their grades, but they will notice, and they will carry the experience into their work and communities. Add more questions and more test subjects and the odds get worse that an error will occur - that's how Las Vegas works - the longer you sit at the table, the worse the odds are for you. This is why circus tricks are dangerous. quote:
Polygraph and CVSA Forums / Polygraph Procedure / Re: Polygraph and the professor
on: Today at 3:40pm
Started by thebigmainer | Post by thebigmainerFirst, how is ground truth to be established? That is, how will the truth or falsity of each student's answers be verified independently of the polygraph results? not sure but i think people on the 1st group who plan on telling the truth will just tell the truth.
the students will be randomly tested so he wont be able to figure out whose in what group. the teaching asst will be picking who goes when.
quote:
Polygraph and CVSA Forums / Polygraph Procedure / Re: Polygraph and the professor
on: Yesterday at 8:12am
Started by thebigmainer | Post by George W. MaschkeBefore addressing your question list, I have a couple questions regarding your professor's challenge. First, how is ground truth to be established? That is, how will the truth or falsity of each student's answers be verified independently of the polygraph results? Second, you mention that you and your classmates will be polygraphed in groups. Is it the case that the professor will know which students are in the same group? For example, that Students A, B, and C are in Group 1, Students D, E, and F are in Group 2, and Students G, H, and I are in Group 3 (without his necessarily knowing what status is assigned to each group)?
.02
r
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)
[This message has been edited by rnelson (edited 06-27-2008).] IP: Logged |
Barry C
Member
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posted 06-27-2008 09:36 PM
The big Mainer had a test years ago in Portland, according to prior discussions. Unless he's moved out-of-state, there are no retired FBI agents practicing up here, so this doesn't sound right. I don't know any in NH either.IP: Logged |
Ted Todd
Member
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posted 06-29-2008 11:15 AM
When somebody posts that they actually "miss Sackett" you know they have been hit hard by the silence. Keep up the good work Jim......I know this is killin' yall! Remember....08/10/08 and not a moment sooner!
Ted
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sackett
Moderator
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posted 06-29-2008 11:42 AM
Ted,I'm just back concentrating on beer consumption... a great replacement and equitable in enjoyment!
Jim
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Bill2E
Member
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posted 07-01-2008 06:21 AM
I have noticed a dramatic drop in posts on the anti site. They are arguing with posts from a month ago between themselves to goad examiners into posting, silence is really golden, maybe we should extend the silence for another 30 days and see what happens. IP: Logged |
Buster
Member
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posted 07-01-2008 06:56 AM
A DACA instructor once told me that he wished "all you police officers would stop going to the Anti site and giving them something to talk about." Maybe he was right.Those of you that didn't read the APA Journal yet --there is a short, good, article about the Anti Site. Can't remember, right now, who wrote it. I am pretty sure it was a board member. IP: Logged |
Toneill
Member
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posted 07-01-2008 09:52 AM
I read the original post as well and my initial and still most recent thoughts are that the author is placing the questions that were probably used in his pre-employment question packet and the actual exam was an R/I Pre-Emp with RQ's relative to truth in answering the questions in the Pre-Employement Question packet.At least that would be my hope! Tony IP: Logged |
ebvan
Member
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posted 07-02-2008 11:55 AM
I was bored so I went to the AP site. since posting is almost dead over there, I decided to take a look at the INFAMOUS PETITION. I wish GM would send it, just like it is to Dubya or his successor.
The signature area has at least one dead guy (David Lykken) numerous joke names, first name or last name only signatures as well as deleted entries and dozens of links to what appear to be hard core porn sitesHis current claim of 1307 signatures is at best a glaring error and at worst an outright fraud. GM obviously hasn't looked for himself in quite some time Somehow I wasn't really surprised. ------------------
Ex scientia veritas IP: Logged |
derekp
Member
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posted 07-02-2008 12:35 PM
Santa Clause was #1308. I think we shoud all sign ridiculous names on the "petition".Merry Christmas! IP: Logged |
ebvan
Member
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posted 07-02-2008 01:43 PM
This Santa Clause guy probably isn't the real Santa He's probably using a made up name. Now some guy named Heywood Jablowme has signed it, probabaly using the return email address of one of those Nigerian bank scam spam letters. Don't they realize that if GM tries to verify that email he will end up on their master list of sucker/respondersHow Devious !!!
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Ex scientia veritas IP: Logged |
Ted Todd
Member
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posted 07-02-2008 03:16 PM
NUKED !(Wasn't funny after the beer wore off!)
Ted
[This message has been edited by Ted Todd (edited 07-03-2008).] IP: Logged |
skipwebb
Member
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posted 07-02-2008 03:39 PM
Seymore Butts
I.P. Clearley
Hung Chow...and the hits just keep on coming! Kind of reminds me of elementary school. IP: Logged |
ebvan
Member
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posted 07-03-2008 03:53 PM
Since AP.org is now in it's 8th year I would like to celebrate with an adaptation from the Simpsons to wit:Lisa Simpson's Meditations on Turning 8:George Maschke’s Meditations on AP.ORG turning 8
George had a little website...
It died!
It died!
George said polygraph was fakery...
He lied!
He lied!
Why oh why is his website dead?
Maybe he should have taken on CVSA instead?
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Ex scientia veritas
[This message has been edited by ebvan (edited 07-03-2008).] [This message has been edited by ebvan (edited 07-03-2008).] IP: Logged |
Ted Todd
Member
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posted 07-03-2008 04:04 PM
ebvanPlease see my edited post above. (teehee) Ted IP: Logged |
Taylor
Member
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posted 07-06-2008 05:02 PM
This is hilarious….they are starving for some attention. Now LVguy is asking for Sackett….Jim you are so popular. This is working so well and it is so boring over there. If GM keeps putting colanders on his head and gleeking every time he speaks maybe the newbie’s will even think he is crazy. I think the deadline should be extended or at least re-evaluated before the posting begins. Of course if crap hits the fan (someone makes the news in a bad way) and we need a re-con strike we could have a short attack and then retreat again. Just a thought. Taylor
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ebvan
Member
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posted 07-06-2008 07:33 PM
Is someone fudging on the deal? Psych1 is hammering nopolycop on the MMPI and his writing style seems a bit familiar ------------------
Ex scientia veritas IP: Logged |
rnelson
Member
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posted 07-06-2008 11:23 PM
Its not me, 'case anyone is wondering. I enjoyed reading the initial spanking. He knows a bit about the validity scales and problems in court. The MMPI-2 (RF) is not as immune to faking at Psych1 would suggest. That is why we use the PCL-4 (version 2). It would be fun to suggest that nopolycop would probably have a better experience with the PAI (Personality Assessment Inventory) requires only 4th grade reading level, compared to 7th grade reading for the MMPI-2. PAI is like the MMPI-2, but has better scale construct validity, because the scales are constructed around symptom endorsement whereas the MMPI-2 scales are atheoretical. PAI also includes a short 160 question version with 20 of the 22 scales, which is a lot less taxing on ADHD types compared the 576 MMPI ites (the short version is still 370 items). I think some departments are also using the California Personality Inventory (CPI), and I've even heard of one using the Jessness.
r
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)
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ebvan
Member
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posted 07-08-2008 04:54 PM
While surfing around the net I found the following summary that while interesting did not appear to be worth the price. Perhaps nopolycop will find it and quote it to psych 1,
Demand Characteristic Effects on the Subtle and Obvious Subscales of the MMPI
Authors: Michael A. Harvey; Carl N. Sipprelle Abstract
The MMPI was administered to 40 undergraduate students with 20 subjects asked to imagine that they were applying for a job and 20 subjects asked to imagine that they were applying for psychotherapy. Subjects in the job group dissimulated (faked good) and those in the therapy group malingered (faked bad) as evidenced by differences between the subtle and obvious scores. The combined subtle and obvious score was higher for the psychotherapy group. It was concluded that the subtle, obvious, and combined subtle and obvious scores on the MMPI were a function of the demand characteristics of the testing situation.
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Ex scientia veritas IP: Logged |
polypro
Member
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posted 07-09-2008 06:38 PM
I've been monitoring AP for about five years. Never posted, and probably never will. I don't monitor it as much now as I did in the past because it appears as if it's become rather boring, and not to mention that it's changed a good bit. Is it me or is G.M. not getting people to post as much as in the past? I'm not talking about the current boycott, either. If you go to the daily postings, it appears as if all of the posting run together, and it generally involved just a few people. In the past there were alot more people posting on a variety of topics. Now there are just a few people posting on one maybe two seperate issues. What's up? Maybe the interest isn't there anymore, or perhaps people are scared to post in fear that an examiner might pick up on something that connects the examiner to the examinee (despite G.M.'s warnings - like that helps). Anyhow, the entertainment is gone. I'll continue to go there on occasion, but not like I have in the past.
The only thing entertaining now is you guys and gals giving G.M. a run for his money. That's always amusing. Until APA, I'm gone. IP: Logged |
ebvan
Member
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posted 07-14-2008 08:40 PM
As of this post AP.org seems to have been off the air for a while.Down for service? forgot to pay the bill? Nuked? Whassup ------------------
Ex scientia veritas IP: Logged |
chaz
Member
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posted 07-15-2008 08:31 AM
Ted you have a wicked sense of humour. You got me once with a smart ass comment that took me 3 months to realise that you were toying with me! I will get you back if you come to Indy!IP: Logged |
Ted Todd
Member
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posted 07-15-2008 10:45 AM
Chaz,I won't be in Indy so what ever you got festerin' inside yall is going to have to simmer a bit longer! Ted IP: Logged |
ebvan
Member
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posted 07-19-2008 08:54 PM
Once again we celebrate 24 hrs without a post on Georges Site. Between 7-18-08 @ 5:35pm and 7-19-08 @ 8:17 pm Nothing but nothing ------------------
Ex scientia veritas IP: Logged |
sackett
Moderator
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posted 07-22-2008 04:40 PM
Yes, but what IS the true value of nothing...huummmmmmmm!?
Jim
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Ted Todd
Member
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posted 07-23-2008 10:32 AM
If anyone thinks the silence is not working, just look at Georgie's site today. Ted IP: Logged |
Taylor
Member
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posted 07-23-2008 03:54 PM
Just about to check out AP....but what about JasonBlacks post? So many questions....then this comment:Thanks so much for taking the time! Buying the book right now, what a fascinating "art" you guys have here. There is so much to it, the average joe would never imagine! That seems like it has an embedded message!
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Barry C
Member
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posted 07-23-2008 04:36 PM
I was suspicious of him, and I'm more suspicious of our new psych major.IP: Logged |
ebvan
Member
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posted 07-23-2008 05:20 PM
OK we have
SAPPERS IN THE WIRE !!!!!!!!whadda we gonna do? Let's Blow the Foo gas and have a mad minute. Nope. I think simply referring them to Matte's Book or to the APA website where they can purchase inexpensive published information should suffice. If you look at JasonBlacks post he is seeking information for school but is asking questions of source he couldn't properly cite as authoritative. Another thing that is suspicious is the "I've saved some dough to actually take my own examine next week" statement. He is trying to be clever. Kygama is researching using yoga or self hypnosis as a CM. Do I sound cynical? Gee, I hope so. I was so tempted to respond that by wearing an old fashioned ladies girdle during the exam he could control both the cardio and pneumo channels by pushing his navel into the elastic before responding and that EDA could be manipulated by wearing a 9 volt battery in his shoe.
BUT, I DIDN'T see that's self control y'all
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Ex scientia veritas
[This message has been edited by ebvan (edited 07-23-2008).] IP: Logged |
detector
Administrator
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posted 07-23-2008 06:02 PM
Just keep a close eye. If they hang around and keep asking questions...or begin responding to others...that is the sure sign of a maschke minion. They will eventually out themselves, they just can't help it.------------------
Ralph Hilliard
PolygraphPlace Owner & Operator Be sure to visit our new store for all things Polygraph Related
http://store.polygraphplace.com
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rcgilford
Member
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posted 07-23-2008 06:24 PM
Kygamma’s story has an odor about it. I’ve successfully tested people who are slow breathers (scuba, distance runners, etc). The pre-test would normally disclose that information. The way I read his post is that he deliberately controlled his breathing. Whether it was intentional to defeat the test, or his way of relaxing is irrelevant. Once he was told to stop, if he continued then I write that one up as uncooperative due to a deliberate attempt to defeat the test. His admission of course is the key to that determination. If Kygamma is a psychologist, then you can bet he has researched the polygraph. IP: Logged |
Barry C
Member
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posted 07-23-2008 08:34 PM
He didn't research it that much or else he would have learned that the psych people who don't think it works are the same ones that say they don't know much of anything about it - just like him.IP: Logged |
Ted Todd
Member
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posted 07-23-2008 10:45 PM
rcgilford,I too have have perfect tests with marathon runners, scuba divers, deep water divers and the like. The difference is.....you are not doing any of those activities while taking a polygraph exam so there is no reason for regulating your breathing. I even had one idiot tell me he was breathing the way he was because he was a tuba player! When you start to see the high rolling respirations during the exam, it should be a red flag. If the behavior continues, the test is over. Ted IP: Logged |
skipwebb
Member
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posted 07-24-2008 07:14 AM
We test some of the most physically fit people in the country in the military and particularly here at Fort Bragg and places such as Fort Campbell and Fort Benning where the Special Forces, Rangers, Airborne and the like call home. These guys do physical training every day and run miles on end. Many are distance runners, scuba trained, or do HALO (high altitude, low opening) parachute missions. We don't see abnormally slow breathing with these guys unless they are trying to screw with the test.IP: Logged |
liedoctor
Member
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posted 07-24-2008 08:58 AM
"We test some of the most physically fit people in the country in the military and particularly... here at Fort Bragg and places such as Fort Campbell and Fort Benning where the Special Forces, Rangers, Airborne and the like call home."Yep, I agree. Those guys are nearly as fit as the guys at Paris Island, San Diego, and Quantico...  Liedoctor... IP: Logged |
Barry C
Member
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posted 07-24-2008 09:04 AM
If he's for real, he's being lazy - asking us to give him the responses that will let him cheat on the test. I was tempted to engage in a discussion with him, but I'm too suspicious. Although, it may be worth mentioning that many of the military lab studies - and all their field work - is with guys in great shape, who probably have HRs in the 50s and breath on the slow end of normal. Those studies and those using non-military members are all about the same.IP: Logged |
ebvan
Member
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posted 07-30-2008 10:47 AM
Evidently theliespy hasn't heard of our Ignore George Agreement. Does anyone know who he is so he can be invited to join us?At first I thought he was a GM alter ego but now I'm not so sure. ------------------
Ex scientia veritas IP: Logged |
Ted Todd
Member
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posted 07-30-2008 11:48 AM
EbvanTheliespy is a Newby on the anti site with two posts. I don't know who he is but apparently, he does not read this site. Anyway, sometimes it's nice to see a virgin get tossed into the volcano. Ted IP: Logged |
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